I wouldn’t usually do this, but I feel my innate sense of Fair Play (© MarkFerguson) demands it. So here we are… below you will find three different texts. In plain font there is a letter from Matthew Offord MP to his constituent outlining his position on the issue of same-sex ‘marriage’. In bold there is Mark Ferguson’s clever little fisk of said letter. In red is my response to his fisking.
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“My own position is that I will not be voting for legislation that extends marriage for same-sex couples. Having waited many years to get married I acknowledge the value the commitment brings.”
You think YOU’VE waited many years to get married Matthew? Imagine how long a gay couple might have waited.
Around about the length of time they have been with their partners, I guess. A general rule that applies to heterosexual couples, too. No great message to be drawn from that.
It is my strong personal, moral and religious belief that the institution of marriage is to provide the foundation of a stable relationship in which those two people of the opposite sex procreate and raise a child. That is physically not possible for same-sex couples so I don’t see the point of introducing a law to allow this.
So marriage isn’t valid without procreation? What about those who can’t conceive? What about those who don’t want children? Marriage is not entirely about childbirth, and hasn’t been for quite some time… Ahhh, this old chestnut, favourite of many a combox crusader. Saying marriage isn’t interlinked with procreation because some can’t conceive is rather like saying cars aren’t for driving because some won’t start. In other words, it’s facile.
I strongly believe in same-sex couples having the right to a civil registration, in order that they receive the same benefits as opposite-sex couples but not marriage.
Matthew wants same-sex couples to “receive the same benefits as opposite-sex couples” – all except the benefit of getting married that is. Marriage isn’t ‘a benefit’, which implies (in classic New Labour style) that it is a universal right one can simply demand irrespective of all other factors – for those with a religious hue, it is the acknowledgement before God of the union of one man and one woman. ‘Twas ever thus. You may not have a religious hue, Mark, unless of course it’s the lovely fuzzy ‘let’s-all-hug-a-poor-person’ stuff that doesn’t offend your metroliberal sensibilities, but the law of the land does, mainly because we are, effectively, a church state. Which is why the issue of the law and entitlements before it really is relevant. Completely relevant. Not that this is a non-religious vs. religious debate – there are plenty who defend marriage as marriage outwith religious argument.
To many this might seem like a trivial matter, particularly since the introduction of Civil Partnerships in 2004 means that same sex couple already enjoy the same rights that married couple do.
Apart from the right to get married. Keep up Matthew.
Ahhh, that ‘rights’ things again. Which rather puts the cart before the horse, since the issue of whether marriage is a right is precisely the point. And if marriage is, by very definition, the union of one man and woman, then to demand it as a right for either those of the same gender, or for polygamists, or for any other creative construction you can think of is, its opponents would argue, simply nonsensical. Or as Scruton put it ‘The pressure for gay marriage is, therefore, in a certain measure self-defeating. It resembles Henry VIII’s move to gain ecclesiastical endorsement for his divorce, by making himself head of the Church. The Church that endorsed his divorce thereby ceased to be the Church whose endorsement he was seeking.’ Oh I know you won’t like Scruton because, y’know, he doesn’t vote Labour and probably reads the Telegraph ‘n’ stuff. Try Michael White instead. Or try Google for a list of various other lefties who oppose the same legislation – it won’t take you long.
However the institution of marriage is woven into the fabric of our nation – it affects our courts, inheritance rights and even our schools. And it is the effect on our schools, children and teachers that is worrying so many. Close to 100,000 people have signed the one man, one woman equals marriage petition.
Because that’s how policy is decided now – once 100,000 people sign a petition then the issue is settled. Thank goodness for that then, because once we find the other 50,000 who want Clarkson as PM then we’ll be home and dry. Firstly it’s worth pointing out that the online petition now has over half a million signatories, but you’re quite right policy shouldn’t be decided this way. But then, Mr Offord wasn’t suggesting that policy should be decided this way. He was merely pointing out, and making no great issue of it, that there is a depth of feeling amongst the general public that aligns with his own point of view. Rather like certain centre-left websites, for example, who try and discern great political truths from the latest opinion poll. Mark Ferguson, meet Mr Straw Man…
In regard to education, Section 403 of the Education Act 1996 places a legal requirement on schools to teach children about “the importance of marriage”. If marriage is redefined, schools will have no choice but to give children equivalent teaching on same sex marriage, even those children of a very young age, including those at primary school.
WON’T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN? If only they had before previous equality crusaders decided to close Roman Catholic adoption agencies that were trying to find loving families for orphans. But no, it was all about ‘rights’ back then, too. The right to protection from discrimination in the provision of goods and services, as I recall. ‘Good and Services’. Sheesh.
The underlying tone of this suggests that somehow learning about same sex couples might have a negative effect on children. No, he quite pointedly sticks to the issue of marriage. It neglects, however, the positive impact children learning about same sex couples would have in terms of lessening the likelihood of homophobic bullying in schools. A speculative non-sequitur and emotional blackmail, quite frankly – bullying is abhorrent and should be ruthlessly stamped out in all circumstances, whatever the reason. Kids can be cruel, and the cruelty they inflict upon one another is not merely proportional to the extent to which their victim is different, or indeed how they are different. Which is precisely why bullying shouldn’t be chopped up into categories but should be hit head on for exactly what it is – and why any speculative argument such as this should be approached with rather more caution.
Also, I may be getting on a bit, but I don’t remember marriage ever coming up when I was at school. Maybe that explains why you have a distinctly hazy view about what it actually is. Now that either means a) it did but had absolutely no impact on me so I can’t remember (hardly the greatest basis for suring up your arguments) or b) it didn’t happen. Considering the national school curriculum, I strongly suspect it was a). I guess there may be a c) teachers are brainwashing our children, but in the reality-based community we ignore nonsense like that… We in the reality-based community know that teachers ‘brainwash’ children everyday. We choose the subjects they learn and the knowledge they have access to. We reward correct answers and correct wrong answers. We tell them to respect authority, and themselves, and one another, and punish them when they don’t. We seek to instil them with a set of values and expect the children to live up to these values, be it on racism, or commitment, or bullying. In short, they absorb the environment we create for them, most of which works more like osmosis than a written list that has to be learnt by rote. In other words, much the same as what happened when you were at school.
So what will happen to parents who because of religious, or philosophical beliefs take their children out of lessons? It is simply inconceivable in today’s world where political correctness runs a mock in our institutions, that there would not be profound consequences for those who hold traditional views. Parents who object will be treated as bigots and outcasts, possibly excluded from being on the PTA, or from being a governor.
Hold your horses Matthew. You’ve made a big leap of faith from same sex marriage here. You’ve even fallen back on the old “PC gawn mad” stuff which is “running a mock”. Although Matthew, let me be as strident as you for a moment – those who would pull their kids out of lessons for fear that they might hear about loving same sex relationships are, by my definition at least, bigoted in this regard. Sorry. Which rather proves the general theory that for every Daily Mail reader willing to spout ‘PC gawn mad’ there’s a Guardianista willing to screech ‘bigot!’. Incidentally, the issue wasn’t about loving same-sex ‘relationships’ – nobody would take their child out of class because they were learning about the love a father might have for his son, or the bonds between two brothers, or the love shared between a grandmother and granddaughter. The issue was, quite specifically, same-sex ‘marriage’ – and not every parent, be they religious or not, wants their child taught that there is no distinction between the two. It is not hard to imagine such a person… some examples off the top of the head might include a devout Muslim sending their child to a Muslim faith school, or a devout Jew sending their child to a Jewish faith school, or a devout Roman Catholic sending their child to a Roman Catholic faith school, or a devout… (&c.)
Discriminated against and persecuted because they hold views that have been enshrined in our laws and have been the cornerstone of our society for two thousand years.
Don’t make me list some of the frankly ludicrous laws we’ve had in the last 2000 years Matthew. Don’t make me do it…. I’ll tell you what, why not list some of the laws that stood the test of time and were cast aside in haste, to be repented in leisure. It might be rather less rhetorically useful for you, but it would be a more productive use of your time. And rather more relevant to the issue at hand.
And what of the teachers who object to teaching about same sex marriage. Will they face disciplinary action? How will it affect their careers? Will same sex marriage be covered under such subjects as citizenship forming part of the main curriculum taught to our children and tested through examination? These are just some of the questions that the Government has so far failed to answer.
Yes Matthew, there will be a “Big Gay Test” at the end of term*. Honestly this is all getting very silly. Again, at school I don’t ever remember being forced to take a compulsory citizenship test – does anyone else? So an issue is raised, an issue that is causing serious concern amongst a whole host of institutions, an issue that is already playing out on the national stage and is getting increasingly ugly, an issue which has hit the national newspapers numerous times in just the last few months, an issue which concerns religious liberty and the freedom of parents to have their children brought up according to the tenets of their faith, an issue relating to the freedom of schools to operate according to the tenets of the faith they stand within, indeed an issue that concerns the very make-up of the education sector… and you go for the ‘Big Gay Test’ quip instead. Get you.
I do not believe that same sex marriage would serve to enhance British society or its values.
One of the great problems with using the phrase “values” in a British context is that what those values are is rather contested. Quite. Often it’s shorthand for “my values”. Agreed. So Matthew, here’s what I think of when I think of “British values”. Fair play. And blocking equal marriage seems distinctly unfair to me. Which only goes to show the extent to which you remain almost entirely oblivious to the arguments of many who argue that marriage is what it is, and once it ceases to be that it becomes something else entirely – which is not marriage. Still, perhaps your notion of fair play could be extended a little to, oh I don’t know, understanding and then addressing the arguments placed before you, avoiding collaboration with Mr Straw Man to fuel your rhetoric, ceasing to throw in witty rejoinders as a means of belittling an opponent and their arguments and lastly, and most importantly, by refraining to fling the metaphorical muck by disregarding your opponents as bigots when they take a different view to yourself.
Fair play. Sounds noble in theory, huh?
Yours sincerely,
MATTHEW OFFORD MP
* – Note to Matthew, there will NOT be a “Big Gay Test”. That was a joke.
Gosh, thanks for clearing that up Mark.